radiolab smarty plants

Monica says what she does do is move around the world with a general feeling of What if? ANNIE: But I wonder if her using these metaphors ANNIE: is perhaps a very creative way of looking at -- looking at a plant, and therefore leads her to make -- make up these experiments that those who wouldn't think the way she would would ever make up. Each one an ounce, an ounce, an ounce, an ounce, an ounce. ROBERT: So it's not that it couldn't fold up, it's just that during the dropping, it learned that it didn't need to. LINCOLN TAIZ: It's a very interesting experiment, and I really want to see whether it's correct or not. So maybe could you just describe it just briefly just what you did? Ring, meat, eat. JAD: So they just went right for the MP3 fake water, not even the actual water? The plants would always grow towards the light. Have you hugged your houseplant today? She went into the forest, got some trees. And they still remembered. It'd be all random. I mean, it's just -- it's reacting to things and there's a series of mechanical behaviors inside the plant that are just bending it in the direction. So they didn't. Then Monica hoists the plant back up again and drops it again. The whole thing immediately closes up and makes it look like, "Oh, there's no plant here. And the classic case of this is if you go back a few centuries ago, someone noticed that plants have sex. 28. So actually, I think you were very successful with your experiment. Seasonally. ], [JENNIFER FRAZER: My name is Jennifer Frazer. JENNIFER FRAZER: An anti-predator reaction? ALVIN UBELL: And I've been in the construction industry ever since I'm about 16 years old. Is it ROBERT: This is like metaphor is letting in the light as opposed to shutting down the blinds. And what we found was that the trees that were the biggest and the oldest were the most highly connected. Submitted by Irene Kaufman on Sun, 04/08/2018 - 12:58pm. They still remembered. I am the blogger of The Artful Amoeba at Scientific American. They stopped folding up. I'm not making this up. And, you know, my job was to track how these new plantations would grow. ROBERT: And right in the middle of the yard is a tree. [ASHLEY: Hi. Landing very comfortably onto a padded base made of foam. Tagged #science #technology #philosophy #education #radiolab. LARRY UBELL: Yeah, and I have done inspections where roots were coming up through the pipe into the house. How much longer? Was it possible that maybe the plants correctly responded by not opening, because something really mad was happening around it and it's like, "This place is not safe.". MONICA GAGLIANO: A plant that is quite far away from the actual pipe. But maybe it makes her sort of more open-minded than -- than someone who's just looking at a notebook. Very similar to the sorts of vitamins and minerals that humans need. Yeah. JAD: Are you bringing the plant parade again? Like what she saw in the outhouse? It was a simple little experiment. ROBERT: Yes, because she knew that scientists had proposed years before, that maybe there's an underground economy that exists among trees that we can't see. ROBERT: So I think what she would argue is that we kind of proved her point. So you're like a metaphor cop with a melty heart. ROBERT: And on this particular day, she's with the whole family. So after much trial and error with click and hums and buzzes She found that the one stimulus that would be perfect was A little fan. MONICA GAGLIANO: I wonder if that was maybe a bit too much. Into the roots, and then into the microbial community, which includes the mushroom team, yeah. What a fungus does is it -- it hunts, it mines, it fishes, and it strangles. ROBERT: So for three days, three times a day, she would shine these little blue lights on the plants. But maybe it makes her sort of more open-minded than -- than someone who's just looking at a notebook. I mean, you're out there in the forest and you see all these trees, and you think they're individuals just like animals, right? Where would the -- a little plant even store a memory? So light is -- if you shine light on a plant you're, like, feeding it? ROBERT: There's -- on the science side, there's a real suspicion of anything that's anthropomorphizing a plant. Add to My Podcasts. The light and the fan were always coming from the same direction. ROBERT: So we figured look, if it's this easy and this matter of fact, we should be able to do this ourselves and see it for ourselves. ROBERT: Wait a second. ROBERT: This happens to a lot of people. And I met a plant biologist who's gonna lead that parade. They still remembered. Pics! And so the whole family and uncles and aunts and cousins, we all rush up there. These sensitive hairs he argues, would probably be able to feel that tiny difference. JENNIFER FRAZER: As soon as it senses that a grazing animal is nearby ROBERT: If a nosy deer happens to bump into it, the mimosa plant ROBERT: Curls all its leaves up against its stem. And then someone has to count. We waiting for the leaves to, you know, stop folding. So after the first few, the plants already realized that that was not necessary. They somehow have a dye, and don't ask me how they know this or how they figured it out, but they have a little stain that they can put on the springtails to tell if they're alive or dead. I found a little water! Wait a second. It was like -- it was like a huge network. Monica thought about that and designed a different experiment. Kind of even like, could there be a brain, or could there be ears or, you know, just sort of like going off the deep end there. It's gone. JAD: What exchange would that be, Robert? You know, they talk about how honeybee colonies are sort of superorganisms, because each individual bee is sort of acting like it's a cell in a larger body. Once you understand that the trees are all connected to each other, they're all signaling each other, sending food and resources to each other, it has the feel, the flavor, of something very similar. ROBERT: Well, let us say you have a yard in front of your house. And the tree happens to be a weeping willow. ROBERT: But after five days, she found that 80% of the time, the plants went -- or maybe chose -- to head toward the dry pipe that has water in it. Because what she does next is three days later, she takes these plants back into the lab. A forest can feel like a place of great stillness and quiet. We were so inconsistent, so clumsy, that the plants were smart to keep playing it safe and closing themselves up. MONICA GAGLIANO: Light is obviously representing dinner. So we are going to meet a beautiful little plant called a mimosa pudica, which is a perfectly symmetrical plant with leaves on either side of a central stem. Now, can you -- can you imagine what we did wrong? And right in the middle of the yard is a tree. ROBERT: Oh! And then she waited a few more days and came back. And then Monica would ROBERT: Just about, you know, seven or eight inches. I don't know. But they do have root hairs. And she says she began to notice things that, you know, one wouldn't really expect. ROBERT: Nothing happened at all. Also thanks to Christy Melville and to Emerald O'Brien and to Andres O'Hara and to Summer Rayne. JENNIFER FRAZER: If you look at these particles under the microscope, you can see the little tunnels. So, okay. Yeah, it might run out of fuel. ROBERT: Packets of minerals. She determined that you can pick a little computer fan and blow it on a pea plant for pretty much ever and the pea plant would be utterly indifferent to the whole thing. Episodes. And it's more expensive. And ROBERT: Since he was so deep down in there. It's soaks in sunshine, and it takes CO2, carbon dioxide, and it's splits it in half. Picasso! From Tree to Shining Tree. ROBERT: Is your dog objecting to my analysis? I mean, what? ALVIN UBELL: You have to understand that the cold water pipe causes even a small amount of water to condense on the pipe itself. Picasso! Like the bell for the dog. Thanks to Jennifer Frazer who helped us make sense of all this. What's its job? ROBERT: So light is -- if you shine light on a plant you're, like, feeding it? Eventually over a period of time, it'll crack the pipe like a nutcracker. It involves a completely separate organism I haven't mentioned yet. JAD: If the -- if the tube system is giving the trees the minerals, how is it getting it, the minerals? Anyone who's ever had a plant in a window knows that. ROBERT: Actually, Monica's dog leads perfectly into her third experiment, which again will be with a plant. Plants are complex and ancient organisms. So they just went right for the MP3 fake water, not even the actual water? I mean, I think there's something to that. SUZANNE SIMARD: They start producing chemicals that taste really bad. ANNIE: Yeah. Start of message. JENNIFER FRAZER: Yes, in a lot of cases it is the fungus. Well, it depends on who you ask. MONICA GAGLIANO: Again, if you imagine that the pot, my experimental pot. The problem is is with plants. Fan, light, lean. Same as the Pavlov. Are going to make me rethink my stance on plants. And all of a sudden, one of them says, "Oh, oh, oh, oh! But they do have root hairs. We dropped. They definitely don't have a brain. ROBERT: We're carefully examining the roots of this oak tree. Because I have an appointment. ROY HALLING: So there's an oak tree right there. ROBERT: And the salivation equivalent was the tilt of the plant? Have you hugged your houseplant today? I mean, Jigs was part of the family. It's almost as if these plants -- it's almost as if they know where our pipes are. SUZANNE SIMARD: So we know that Douglas fir will take -- a dying Douglas fir will send carbon to a neighboring Ponderosa pine. ROBERT: A little while back, I had a rather boisterous conversation with these two guys. ROBERT: What kind of minerals does a tree need? 0:00. With a California grow license for 99 plants, an individual is permitted to cultivate more than the first 6 or 12 immature plants. It's almost as if these plants -- it's almost as if they know where our pipes are. Because after dropping them 60 times, she then shook them left to right and they instantly folded up again. Annie McEwen, Stephanie Tam, our intern, we decided all to go to check it out for ourselves, this thing I'm not telling you about. And the salivation equivalent was the tilt of the plant? ROBERT: He's got lots of questions about her research methods, but really his major complaint is -- is her language. LARRY UBELL: I'm not giving my age. I've been looking around lately, and I know that intelligence is not unique to humans. ROBERT: Is your dog objecting to my analysis? And it can reach these little packets of minerals and mine them. And after not a whole lot of drops the plant, she noticed, stopped closing its leaves. They're switched on. Like the bell for the dog. Ring, meat, eat. So we're really -- like this is -- we're really at the very beginning of this. Today, Robert drags Jad along on a parade for the surprising feats of brainless plants. But over the next two decades, we did experiment after experiment after experiment that verified that story. And the plant still went to the place where the pipe was not even in the dirt? No. ROBERT: And she says she began to notice things that, you know, one wouldn't really expect. In a tangling of spaghetti-like, almost a -- and each one of those lines of spaghetti is squeezing a little bit. ALVIN UBELL: The glass is not broken. Now, you might think that the plant sends out roots in every direction. Five, four, three, two, one, drop! [laughs] When I write a blog post, my posts that get the least traffic guaranteed are the plant posts. But the drop was just shocking and sudden enough for the little plant to Do its reflex defense thing. Radiolab is supported in part by the Alfred P. Sloan Foundation, enhancing public understanding of science and technology in the modern world. Couldn't it just be an entirely different interpretation here? I guess you could call it a mimosa plant drop box. That's a parade I'll show up for. And so they have this trading system with trees. And not too far away from this tree, underground, there is a water pipe. So then at one point, when you only play the bell for the dog, or you, you know, play the fan for the plant, we know now for the dogs, the dog is expecting. ROBERT: He's got lots of questions about her research methods, but really his major complaint is -- is her language. JENNIFER FRAZER: Finally, one time he did not bring the meat, but he rang the bell. Like, two percent or 0.00000001 percent? SUZANNE SIMARD: Would just suck up through photosynthesis. MONICA GAGLIANO: I wonder if that was maybe a bit too much. ROY HALLING: Well, you can see the white stuff is the fungus. Once you understand that the trees are all connected to each other, they're all signaling each other, sending food and resources to each other, it has the feel, the flavor, of something very similar. In my brain. Like, they don't have ears or a brain or anything like, they couldn't hear like we hear. ROBERT: But that day with the roots is the day that she began thinking about the forest that exists underneath the forest. MONICA GAGLIANO: Yeah, plants really like light, you know? This is the plant and pipe mystery. And again. Robert, I have -- you know what? And of course we had to get Jigs out. So they might remember even for a much longer time than 28 days. Little seatbelt for him for the ride down. So I don't have a problem. And so I don't have a problem with that. Would they stay in the tree, or would they go down to the roots? Maybe there's some kind of signal? Or maybe slower? There was some kind of benefit from the birch to the fur. ], [ALVIN UBELL: And Alvin Ubell. This is like metaphor is letting in the light as opposed to shutting down the blinds. Hi. Or maybe slower? MONICA GAGLIANO: Pretty much like the concept of Pavlov with his dog applied. Does it threaten your sense of humanity that you depend for pretty much every single calorie you eat on a plant? I mean, it's -- like, when a plant bends toward sunlight. ROBERT: And not too far away from this tree, underground, there is a water pipe. ROBERT: Yeah. And his idea was to see if he could condition these dogs to associate that food would be coming from the sound of a bell. That's the place where I can remember things. Little fan goes on, little light goes on, both aiming at the pea plant from the same direction. LARRY UBELL: Me first. ROBERT: I wanted to talk to them because, as building inspectors they -- there's something they see over and over and over. Charts. To remember? From just bears throwing fish on the ground? It's 10 o'clock and I have to go. ROBERT: But it has, like, an expandable ROBERT: Oh, it's an -- oh, listen to that! Fan, light, lean. And Roy by the way, comes out with this strange -- it's like a rake. Listen to this episode from Radiolab: Viper Members on Spotify. ROBERT: That is actually a clue in what turns out to be a deep, deep mystery. JENNIFER FRAZER: And he would repeat this. Okay. Does it threaten your sense of humanity that you depend for pretty much every single calorie you eat on a plant? They start producing chemicals that taste really bad. The part where the water pipe was, the pipe was on the outside of the pot? Fan first, light after. And it's that little, little bit of moisture that the plant will somehow sense. I purposely removed the chance for a moisture gradient. Today, Robert drags Jad along on a parade for the surprising feats of brainless plants. They'd remember straight away. And I wanted to talk to them because, as building inspectors they -- there's something they see over and over and over. This episode was produced by Annie McEwen. Like, why would the trees need a freeway system underneath the ground to connect? JAD: That is cool. ROBERT: But she's got a little red headlamp on. So then at one point, when you only play the bell for the dog, or you, you know, play the fan for the plant, we know now for the dogs, the dogs is expecting. No, I don't because she may come up against it, people who think that intelligence is unique to humans. Connecting your house to the main city water line that's in the middle of the street. Then we actually had to run four months of trials to make sure that, you know, that what we were seeing was not one pea doing it or two peas, but it was actually a majority. But let me just -- let me give it a try. I've always loved Radiolab. ROBERT: Oh, so it says to the newer, the healthier trees, "Here's my food. They're switched on. St. Andrew's Magazine Dr. Aatish Bhatia Inspires Students & Faculty. MONICA GAGLIANO: Or would just be going random? In my brain. But We did catch up with her a few weeks later. MONICA GAGLIANO: Again, if you imagine that the pot, my experimental pot. ROBERT: That there was a kind of a moral objection to thinking this way. And again. Here's the water.". You know, it goes back to anthropomorphizing plant behaviors. But it was originally done with -- with a dog. In the Richard Attenborough version, if you want to look on YouTube, he actually takes a nail And he pokes it at this little springtail, and the springtail goes boing! It's gone. One of the roots just happens to bump into a water pipe and says -- sends a signal to all the others, "Come over here. So I think what she would argue is that we kind of proved her point. She took some plants, put them in a pot that restricted the roots so they could only go in one of just two directions, toward the water pipe or away from the water pipe. Yeah, and I have done inspections where roots were coming up through the pipe into the house. Pulled out a is that a root of some sort? The plants have to keep pulling their leaves up and they just get tired. ROBERT: We, as you know, built your elevator. JENNIFER FRAZER: I am the blogger of The Artful Amoeba at Scientific American. 2018. So she takes the plants, she puts them into the parachute drop, she drops them. She thinks that they somehow remembered all those drops and it never hurt, so they didn't fold up any more. JENNIFER FRAZER: But we don't know. In the little springtail bodies there were little tubes growing inside them. Is there anyone whose job it is to draw a little chalk outlines around the springtails? And it's good it was Sunday. JENNIFER FRAZER: Plants are really underrated. JAD: If a plant doesn't have a brain what is choosing where to go? There are multiple ways of doing one thing, right? They're all out in the forest. ROBERT: Are you, like, aggressively looking around for -- like, do you wake up in the morning saying, "Now what can I get a plant to do that reminds me of my dog, or reminds me of a bear, or reminds me of a bee?". It's a family business. And so we're digging away, and Jigs was, you know, looking up with his paws, you know, and looking at us, waiting. Sep 28, 2020 - Radiolab is on a curiosity bender. It's like, no, no, I don't do that. It's definitely crazy. But it didn't happen. ROBERT: She says it was like this moment where she realizes, "Oh, my God! And might as well start the story back when she was a little girl. You got the plant to associate the fan with food. That's amazing and fantastic. Back and forth. Sugar. Instead of eating the fungus, it turns out the fungus ate them. So its resources, its legacy will move into the mycorrhizal network into neighboring trees. It involves a completely separate organism I haven't mentioned yet. JAD: Yes. ROY HALLING: It's just getting started. ALVIN UBELL: How much longer? This peculiar plant has a -- has a surprising little skill. They have to -- have to edit in this together. One of the spookiest examples of this Suzanne mentioned, is an experiment that she and her team did where they discovered that if a forest is warming up, which is happening all over the world, temperatures are rising, you have trees in this forest that are hurting. LARRY UBELL: Yes, we are related. And again. We showed one of these plants to him and to a couple of his colleagues, Sharon De La Cruz ROBERT: Because we wanted them to help us recreate Monica's next experiment. ROBERT: The Ubells see this happening all the time. Now, can you -- can you imagine what we did wrong? And every day that goes by, I have less of an issue from the day before. You give me -- like, I want wind, birds, chipmunks Like, I'm not, like, your sound puppet here. ROBERT: Inspector Tail is his name. So that voice belongs to Aatish Bhatia, who is with Princeton University's Council on Science and Technology. Don't interrupt. Can Robert get Jad to join the march? One tree goes "Uh-oh." Along with a home-inspection duo, a science writer, and some enterprising scientists at . So the question is A plant that is quite far away from the actual pipe, how does it know which way to turn and grow its roots so that it can find the water? I'm a professor emeritus of plant biology at UC Santa Cruz. So just give me some birds. And the fungus actually builds a tunnel inside the rock. These sensitive hairs he argues, would probably be able to feel that tiny difference. They just don't like to hear words like "mind" or "hear" or "see" or "taste" for a plant, because it's too animal and too human. I've been looking around lately, and I know that intelligence is not unique to humans. She took some plants, put them in a pot that restricted the roots so they could only go in one of just two directions, toward the water pipe or away from the water pipe. Like, the plant is hunting? I think there is something like a nervous system in the forest, because it's the same sort of large network of nodes sending signals to one another. It's okay, puppy. Well, okay. SUZANNE SIMARD: We're sitting on the exposed root system, which is like -- it is like a mat. What was your reaction when you saw this happen? And then all the other ones go in the same direction. Well, I created these horrible contraptions. [ANSWERING MACHINE: To play the message, press two. ROBERT: She determined that you can pick a little computer fan and blow it on a pea plant for pretty much ever and the pea plant would be utterly indifferent to the whole thing. And when I came on the scene in 19 -- the 1980s as a forester, we were into industrial, large-scale clear-cutting in western Canada. But they do have root hairs. And we saw this in the Bronx. ROBERT: No. Or maybe slower? So she decided to conduct her experiment. And I need a bird, a lot of birds, actually. And the pea plant leans toward them. And you can actually see this happen. Me first. Then Monica hoists the plant back up again and drops it again. We're sitting on the exposed root system, which is like -- it is like a mat. And I mean, like, really loved the outdoors. JAD: What is the tree giving back to the fungus? Verified account Protected Tweets @ Protected Tweets @ ROBERT: They stopped folding up. Start of message. And she says this time they relaxed almost immediately. And of course we had to get Jigs out. Oh, so it says to the newer, the healthier trees, "Here's my food. The water is still in there. Along with a home-inspection duo, a science writer, and some enterprising scientists at Princeton University, wedig into the work of evolutionaryecologist Monica Gagliano, who turns ourbrain-centered worldview on its head through a series of clever experiments that show plants doing things we never would've imagined. And if you just touch it Where all the leaves close in, like do do do do do do. MONICA GAGLIANO: Yeah, plants really like light, you know? And when they go in SUZANNE SIMARD: There is Jigs at the bottom of the outhouse, probably six feet down at the bottom of the outhouse pit. He shoves away the leaves, he shoves away the topsoil. And I do that in my brain. Suzanne says she's not sure if the tree is running the show and saying like, you know, "Give it to the new guy." They just don't like to hear words like "mind" or "hear" or "see" or "taste" for a plant, because it's too animal and too human. Because what she does next is three days later, she takes these plants back into the lab. JAD: Well, okay. Yeah, plants really like light, you know? Testing one, two. Actually, Monica's dog leads perfectly into her third experiment, which again will be with a plant. And we can move it up, and we can drop it. The glass is not broken. JAD: So you couldn't replicate what she saw. And you don't see it anywhere. This is by the way, what her entire family had done, her dad and her grandparents. Wait. But then ROY HALLING: Finally! JAD: Where would the -- a little plant even store a memory? ROBERT: And the classic case of this is if you go back a few centuries ago, someone noticed that plants have sex. I think that's fair. Well, it depends on who you ask. That apparently -- jury's still out -- are going to make me rethink my stance on plants. ROBERT: And with these two stimuli, she put the plants, the little pea plants through a kind of training regime. Never mind.". ROBERT: So what they're saying is even if she's totally sealed the pipe so there's no leak at all, the difference in temperature will create some condensation on the outside. No. On one side, instead of the pipe with water, she attaches an MP3 player with a little speaker playing a recording of And then on the other side, Monica has another MP3 player with a speaker. And remember, if you're a springtail, don't talk to strange mushrooms. Playing via SpotifyPlaying via YouTube Playback options Listening on Switch Spotify device Open in Spotify Web Player ROBERT: But what -- how would a plant hear something? It's doing like a triple double axel backflip or something into the sky. JENNIFER FRAZER: From a particular direction. JAD: And is it as dramatic in the opposite direction? He's holding his hand maybe a foot off the ground. JENNIFER FRAZER: Finally, one time he did not bring the meat, but he rang the bell. Truth is, I think on this point she's got a -- she's right. Nothing delicious at all.". And again. Jad and Robert, they are split on this one. This -- this actually happened to me. The light and the fan were always coming from the same direction. It's soaks in sunshine, and it takes CO2, carbon dioxide, and it's splits it in half. We're just learning about them now, and they're so interesting. So he brought them some meat. So they followed the sound of the barking and it leads them to an outhouse. JENNIFER FRAZER: And his idea was to see if he could condition these dogs to associate that food would be coming from the sound of a bell. One time, the plant literally flew out of the pot and upended with roots exposed. They can also send warning signals through the fungus. It was like, Oh, I might disturb my plants!" JAD: It was curling each time when it ROBERT: Every time. We showed one of these plants to him and to a couple of his colleagues, Sharon De La Cruz Because we wanted them to help us recreate Monica's next experiment. Wait. Like, how can a plant -- how does a plant do that? Sixth, seventh, eighth, ninth, tenth, eleventh. ], [ROY HALLING: Radiolab is produced by Jad Abumrad. SUZANNE SIMARD: And those chemicals will then move through the network and warn neighboring trees or seedlings. There's not a leak in the glass. I mean, you're out there in the forest and you see all these trees, and you think they're individuals just like animals, right? Maybe each root is -- is like a little ear for the plant. Different kind of signal traveling through the soil? And then I needed to -- the difficulty I guess, of the experiment was to find something that will be quite irrelevant and really meant nothing to the plant to start with. He'd fallen in. We need to take a break first, but when we come back, the parade that I want you to join will come and swoop you up and carry you along in a flow of enthusiasm. Along with a home-inspection duo, a science writer, and some enterprising . MONICA GAGLIANO: I don't know. He's looking up at us quite scared and very unhappy that he was covered in And toilet paper. So the -- this branching pot thing. Thanks to Jennifer Frazer who helped us make sense of all this. Again, if you imagine that the pot, my experimental pot. But Monica says what she does do is move around the world with a general feeling of What if? Yes, because she knew that scientists had proposed years before, that maybe there's an underground economy that exists among trees that we can't see. On the outside of the pipe. People speculated about this, but no one had actually proved it in nature in the woods until Suzanne shows up. Well, so what's the end of the story? SUZANNE SIMARD: It'll go, "Ick. And does it change my place in the world? JAD: So you couldn't replicate what she saw. And the -- I'm gonna mix metaphors here, the webs it weaves. MONICA GAGLIANO: The idea was to drop them again just to see, like, the difference between the first time you learn something and the next time. Does it threaten my sense of myself or my place as a human that a plant can do this? And she wondered whether that was true. ROBERT: And she goes into that darkened room with all the pea plants. JAD: That apparently -- jury's still out. I don't know if that was the case for your plants. I don't know. And therefore she might, in the end, see something that no one else would see. Like the bell for the dog. The idea was to drop them again just to see, like, the difference between the first time you learn something and the next time. ROBERT: When we last left off, I'm just saying you just said intelligence. Ring, meat, eat. WHRO is Hampton Roads' local NPR / PBS Station. Like what she saw in the outhouse? Me first. Yeah. And the idea was, she wanted to know like, once the radioactive particles were in the tree, what happens next? ALVIN UBELL: The tree will wrap its roots around that pipe. Yeah. Turns the fan on, turns the light on, and the plant turns and leans that way. She thinks that they somehow remembered all those drops and it never hurt, so they didn't fold up any more. ROBERT: Monica's work has actually gotten quite a bit of attention from other plant biologists. Like so -- and I think that, you know, the whole forest then, there's an intelligence there that's beyond just the species. Tubes. So they can't move. And Jigs at some point just runs off into the woods, just maybe to chase a rabbit. On one side, instead of the pipe with water, she attaches an MP3 player with a little speaker playing a recording of And then on the other side, Monica has another MP3 player with a speaker. Just read about plants having brains and doing things that we honestly do not expect them. No. MONICA GAGLIANO: My reaction was like, "Oh ****!" They still remembered. AATISH BHATIA: This feels one of those experiments where you just abort it on humanitarian grounds, you know? It's like a savings account? And the pea plants are left alone to sit in this quiet, dark room feeling the breeze. Hey, it's okay. The next one goes, "Uh-oh." ROBERT: Peering down at the plants under the red glow of her headlamp. Just for example. MONICA GAGLIANO: Exactly. LINCOLN TAIZ: I think you can be open-minded but still objective. So they just went right for the MP3 fake water, not even the actual water? The fact that humans do it in a particular way, it doesn't mean that everyone needs to do it in that way to be able to do it in the first place. Except in this case instead of a chair, they've got a little plant-sized box. Like, they don't have ears or a brain or anything like, they couldn't hear like we hear. JENNIFER FRAZER: Apparently, she built some sort of apparatus. How do you mean? But instead of dogs, she had pea plants in a dark room. ROBERT: Now, you might think that the plant sends out roots in every direction. So let's go to the first. So today we have a triptych of experiments about plants. No. Pretty much like the concept of Pavlov with his dog applied. I mean, can you remember what you were doing a month ago? Ring, meat, eat. ROBERT: No, no, no, no, no. "I'm under attack!". It just kept curling. Just a boring set of twigs. Huh. So we're up to experiment two now, are we not? She's working in the timber industry at the time. And Roy by the way, comes out with this strange -- it's like a rake. It didn't seem to be learning anything. No boink anymore. It'd be all random. It's about how plants learn, or adapt, or even listen, the way humans do (though scientists really don't seem to know how). But after five days, she found that 80% of the time, the plants went -- or maybe chose -- to head toward the dry pipe that has water in it. They designed from scratch a towering parachute drop in blue translucent Lego pieces. JENNIFER FRAZER: Yeah. And his idea was to see if he could condition these dogs to associate that food would be coming from the sound of a bell. And what she discovered is that all these trees, all these trees that were of totally different species were sharing their food underground. Or even learn? So the fungus is giving the tree the minerals. ROBERT: Salmon consumption. Or even learn? They're some other kind of category. And if you don't have one, by default you can't do much in general. Every one of them. JENNIFER FRAZER: An anti-predator reaction? I think if I move on to the next experiment from Monica, you're going to find it a little bit harder to object to it. It's a very biased view that humans have in particular towards others. Radiolab - Smarty Plants . SUZANNE SIMARD: We had a Geiger counter out there. Like, how can a plant -- how does a plant do that? A given episode might whirl you through science, legal history, and into the home of someone halfway across the world. But instead of dogs, she had pea plants in a dark room. Well, maybe. SUZANNE SIMARD: Yes, we don't normally ascribe intelligence to plants, and plants are not thought to have brains. ROBERT: Like, would they figure it out faster this time? And every day that goes by, I have less of an issue from the day before. Wait a second. What happened to you didn't happen to us. I don't know if that was the case for your plants. It's like, no, no, I don't do that. What do you mean? It's kind of like a cold glass sitting on your desk and there's always a puddle at the bottom. ROBERT: Monica's work has actually gotten quite a bit of attention from other plant biologists. And I mean, like, really loved the outdoors. Okay. She's a forestry professor at the University of British Columbia. In this story, a dog introduces us to a strange creature that burrows . ROBERT: Oh. I mean, I see the dirt. And remember, if you're a springtail, don't talk to strange mushrooms. They can adapt in an overwhelming number of ways to different conditions, different environments, different stressors, and different ecological pressures. I'm a research associate professor at the University of Sydney. JENNIFER FRAZER: And the fungus actually builds a tunnel inside the rock. He shoves away the leaves, he shoves away the topsoil. Minerals from the soil. I mean, I think there's something to that. What -- I forgot to ask you something important. It's yours." It's a very interesting experiment, and I really want to see whether it's correct or not. JENNIFER FRAZER: Into which she put these sensitive plants. We've all seen houseplants do that, right? JENNIFER FRAZER: And he would repeat this. ROBERT: What happened to you didn't happen to us. ROBERT: That's a -- learning is something I didn't think plants could do. They're called springtails, because a lot of them have a little organ on the back that they actually can kind of like deploy and suddenly -- boing! SUZANNE SIMARD: And when I came on the scene in 19 -- the 1980s as a forester, we were into industrial, large-scale clear-cutting in western Canada. JENNIFER FRAZER: They're some other kind of category. You give me -- like, I want wind, birds, chipmunks JAD: Like, I'm not, like, your sound puppet here. That's what she says. That apparently -- jury's still out. We ask deep questions and use investigative journalism to get the answers. Two very different options for our plant. He's on the right track. JENNIFER FRAZER: Minerals from the soil. Like, I don't understand -- learning, as far as I understand it, is something that involves memory and storage. Or maybe slower? It's kind of like a cold glass sitting on your desk, and there's always a puddle at the bottom. A tree needs something else. They remembered what had happened three days before, that dropping didn't hurt, that they didn't have to fold up. Turns the fan on, turns the light on, and the plant turns and leans that way. Jad and Robert, theyare split on this one. MONICA GAGLIANO: Landing very comfortably onto a padded base made of foam. JAD: So today we have a triptych of experiments about plants. LINCOLN TAIZ: Yes. And the tree gets the message, and it sends a message back and says, "Yeah, I can do that.". SUZANNE SIMARD: And so I designed this experiment to figure that out. Nothing happened at all. LARRY UBELL: It's not leaking. Now the plants if they were truly dumb they'd go 50/50. Is your dog objecting to my analysis? JENNIFER FRAZER: Yeah, it might run out of fuel. ROBERT: So that's what the tree gives the fungus. So after much trial and error with click and hums and buzzes She found that the one stimulus that would be perfect was A little fan. They still remembered. Nothing happened at all. This happens to a lot of people. SUZANNE SIMARD: No, so for example, lignin is important for making a tree stand up straight. ROBERT: But instead of dogs, she had pea plants in a dark room. You found exactly what the plants would do under your circumstances which were, I don't know, let's say a bit more tumultuous than mine. Birds, please. ROBERT: Remember I told you how trees make sugar? Remember that the roots of these plants can either go one direction towards the sound of water in a pipe, or the other direction to the sound of silence. Just the sound of it? MONICA GAGLIANO: So, you know, I'm in the dark. Apparently she built some sort of apparatus. I remember going in at the uni on a Sunday afternoon. I know -- I know you -- I know you don't. There's this whole other world right beneath my feet. And this is what makes it even more gruesome. So what do we have in our ears that we use to hear sound? Yeah, I know. They run out of energy. ROBERT: I don't think Monica knows the answer to that, but she does believe that, you know, that we humans MONICA GAGLIANO: We are a little obsessed with the brain. Coming up on the Plant Parade, we get to the heart -- or better yet, the root -- of a very specific type of plant. ROBERT: So maybe could you just describe it just briefly just what you did? ], [ROY HALLING: With help from Alexandra Leigh Young, Jackson Roach and Charu Sinha. It just kept curling and curling. The tree will wrap its roots around that pipe. The same one that are used in computers like, you know, really tiny. AATISH BHATIA: All right. ROBERT: When you go into a forest, you see a tree, a tall tree. Here's the water.". We had a Geiger counter out there. Jad and Robert, they are spli ], [ROY HALLING: Matt Kielty, Robert Krulwich, Annie McEwen, Andy Mills, Latif Nasser, Malissa O'Donnell. The next one goes, "Uh-oh." Exactly. So Monica moves the fans to a new place one more time. He's got lots of questions about her research methods, but really his major complaint is -- is her language. So you -- if you would take away the fish, the trees would be, like, blitzed. ROBERT: And that's just the beginning. ROBERT: So here's what she did. Very similar to the sorts of vitamins and minerals that humans need. They need light to grow. And so they have this trading system with trees. I don't know if you're a bank or if you're an -- so it's not necessarily saying, "Give it to the new guy." ROBERT: They would salivate and then eat the meat. ROBERT: And this? Radiolab is supported in part by the Alfred P. Sloan Foundation, enhancing public understanding of Science and Technology in the modern world. So no plants were actually hurt in this experiment. MONICA GAGLIANO: The idea was to drop them again just to see, like, the difference between the first time you learn something and the next time. Let him talk. And if you just touch it ROBERT: You can actually watch this cascade ROBERT: Where all the leaves close in, like do do do do do do. LARRY UBELL: That -- that's -- that's interesting. ROBERT: They remembered what had happened three days before, that dropping didn't hurt, that they didn't have to fold up. They still did not close when she dropped them. That's the place where I remember things. That something bad is happening. I can scream my head off if I want to. When I was a little kid, I would be in the forest and I'd just eat the forest floor. Yeah. And she goes on to argue that had we been a little bit more steady and a little bit more consistent, the plants would have learned and would have remembered the lesson. We pulled Jigs out and we threw him in the lake with a great deal of yelping and cursing and swearing, and Jigs was cleaned off. That's okay. If a plant doesn't have a brain what is choosing where to go? So I don't have a problem. ROBERT: And some of them, this is Lincoln Taiz LINCOLN TAIZ: I'm a professor emeritus of plant biology at UC Santa Cruz. These guys are actually doing it." ROBERT: But the drop was just shocking and sudden enough for the little plant to ROBERT: Do its reflex defense thing. And we dropped it once and twice. ROBERT: Sounds, yeah. MONICA GAGLIANO: So then at one point, when you only play the bell for the dog, or you, you know, play the fan for the plant, we know now for the dogs, the dogs is expecting. JENNIFER FRAZER: With when they actually saw and smelled and ate meat. And then Monica would Just about, you know, seven or eight inches. ROBERT: I know -- I know you -- I know you don't. ROBERT: She says a timber company would move in and clear cut an entire patch of forest, and then plant some new trees. RICHARD ATTENBOROUGH: It's the equivalent of a human being jumping over the Eiffel Tower. So -- so carbon will move from that dying tree. And so we, you know, we've identified these as kind of like hubs in the network. Let us say you have a yard in front of your house. So they might remember even for a much longer time than 28 days. And so I was really excited. This is the headphones? So this is our plant dropper. The Ubells see this happening all the time. I'll put it down in my fungi. ROBERT: So there is some water outside of the pipe. ROBERT: That is correct. I mean, to say that a plant is choosing a direction, I don't know. ROBERT: It's kind of -- it's shaped like MONICA GAGLIANO: Like the letter Y, but upside down. The same one that are used in computers like, you know, really tiny. Imagine towering trees to your left and to your right. ROBERT: So you just did what Pavlov did to a plant. On one side, instead of the pipe with water, she attaches an MP3 player with a little speaker playing a recording of ROBERT: And then on the other side, Monica has another MP3 player with a speaker. JAD: Where would the -- a little plant even store a memory? One time, the plant literally flew out of the pot and upended with roots exposed. JAD: So we're up to experiment two now, are we not? Sugar. To remember? Wait. And after not a whole lot of drops the plant, she noticed, stopped closing its leaves. 2016. I don't know where you were that day. ROBERT: That is actually a clue in what turns out to be a deep, deep mystery. Do you really need a brain to sense the world around you? I'm not gonna tell you. I'm 84. So we went back to Monica. This is the headphones? Of Accurate Building Inspectors. Crossposted by 4 years ago. JAD: And to Annie McEwen and Brenna Farrow who both produced this piece. A little while back, I had a rather boisterous conversation with these two guys. I think if I move on to the next experiment from Monica, you're going to find it a little bit harder to object to it. JAD: And the plant still went to the place where the pipe was not even in the dirt? Wait. It was a simple little experiment. You got the plant to associate the fan with food. Into which she put these sensitive plants. So they figured out who paid for the murder. Because if I let you go it's gonna be another 20 minutes until I get to talk. Is it, like -- is it a plant? So she takes the plants, she puts them into the parachute drop, she drops them. ROBERT: So you are related and you're both in the plumbing business? [laughs]. SUZANNE SIMARD: And so my mom always talks about how she had to constantly be giving me worm medicine because I was -- I always had worms. Apparently, she built some sort of apparatus. Yeah, it might run out of fuel. MONICA GAGLIANO: Picasso! Like trees of different species are supposed to fight each other for sunshine, right? ROBERT: Because this peculiar plant has a -- has a surprising little skill. And the tree happens to be a weeping willow. And so we are under the impression or I would say the conviction that the brain is the center of the universe, and -- and if you have a brain and a nervous system you are good and you can do amazing stuff. No question there. They curve, sometimes they branch. No. So there is some water outside of the pipe. -- they spring way up high in the air. There's -- they have found salmon in tree rings. JENNIFER FRAZER: And this is what makes it even more gruesome. ROBERT: Instead of eating the fungus, it turns out the fungus ate them. ROBERT: A little while back, I had a rather boisterous conversation with these two guys. I mean again, it's a tree. Well, they do it because the tree has something the fungus needs, and the fungus has something the tree needs. JAD: The plants have to keep pulling their leaves up and they just get tired. Big thanks to Aatish Bhatia, to Sharon De La Cruz and to Peter Landgren at Princeton University's Council on Science and Technology. Well, when I was a kid, my family spent every summer in the forest. It's a family business. ROBERT: Five, four, three, two, one, drop! More information about Sloan at www.sloan.org]. Parsons' Observational Practices Lab Talking About Seeing Symposium. I gotta say, doing this story, this is the part that knocked me silly. Gone. Never mind. JENNIFER FRAZER: This all has a history, of course. Find us at 10900 W Jefferson Blvd or call (310) 390-5120 to learn more. ROBERT: And we dropped it once and twice. JAD: That is cool. But we are in the home inspection business. JAD: No, I actually, like even this morning it's already like poof! MONICA GAGLIANO: Yeah, tested it in my lab. JENNIFER FRAZER: And then they did experiments with the same fungus that I'm telling you about that was capturing the springtails, and they hooked it up to a tree. Again. Like, if you put food into one tree over here, it would end up in another tree maybe 30 feet away over there, and then a third tree over here, and then a fourth tree over there, and a fifth tree over there. Yeah, plants really like light, you know? So for three days, three times a day, she would shine these little blue lights on the plants. ROBERT: Truth is, I think on this point she's got a -- she's right. Can you -- will you soften your roots so that I can invade your root system?" And so we, you know, we've identified these as kind of like hubs in the network. ROBERT: Then she placed the fan right next to the light so that MONICA GAGLIANO: The light and the fan were always coming from the same direction. Yeah, and hopefully not be liquefied by the fungus beneath us. Smarty Plants by Radiolab | Podchaser Episode from the podcast Radiolab Next Episode Smarty Plants Released Wednesday, 14th February 2018 3 people rated this episode About Insights Pro Reviews Creators 9 Lists 1 Do you really need a brain to sense the world around you? SUZANNE SIMARD: Douglas fir, birch and cedar. That would be sugar-minerals-sugar-minerals-sugar-minerals-sugar-minerals-sugar-minerals-sugar-minerals-sugar-minerals-sugar-minerals. And you don't see it anywhere. I spoke to her with our producer Latif Nasser, and she told us that this -- this network has developed a kind of -- a nice, punny sort of name. No. Gebel. But let me just -- let me give it a try. LARRY UBELL: Or it's just the vibration of the pipe that's making it go toward it. But white, translucent and hairy, sort of. ROBERT: So after much trial and error with click and hums and buzzes MONICA GAGLIANO: All sorts of randomness. And the classic case of this is if you go back a few centuries ago, someone noticed that plants have sex. Today, Robert drags Jad along ona parade for the surprising feats of brainless plants. He's holding his hand maybe a foot off the ground. Fan, light, lean. And so I don't have a problem with that. Just for example Let's say it's -- times are good. And for a long time, they were thought of as plants. JAD: It's like every time I close my eyes, you're coming at it from a different direction. This story JAD: You'll get your sound at some point. ROBERT: Could a plant learn to associate something totally random like a bell with something it wanted, like food? And then Monica would ROBERT: Just about, you know, seven or eight inches. Picture one of those parachute drops that they have at the -- at state fairs or amusement parks where you're hoisted up to the top. Turns the fan on, turns the light on, and the plant turns and leans that way. No, I guess that I feel kind of good to say this. And it's that little, little bit of moisture that the plant will somehow sense. JAD: Yeah, absolutely. [laughs] You mean, like the World Wide Web? Oh, yeah. If you look at a root under a microscope, what you see is all these thousands of feelers like hairs on your head looking for water. And then they do stuff. This way there is often more questions than answers, but that's part of the fun as well. Or even learn? Is it, like -- is it a plant? It's okay. SUZANNE SIMARD: Yes, that seems to be what happens. ROBERT: But that scientist I mentioned MONICA GAGLIANO: My name is Monica Gagliano. View SmartyPlantsRadioLab Transcript (2).docx from CHEM 001A at Pasadena City College. We were so inconsistent, so clumsy, that the plants were smart to keep playing it safe and closing themselves up. Or at the time actually, she was a very little girl who loved the outdoors. ], [JENNIFER FRAZER: Bethel Habte, Tracie Hunte, Matt Kielty ], [ALVIN UBELL: Matt Kielly. SUZANNE SIMARD: When I was a little kid, I would be in the forest and I'd just eat the forest floor. Listen to Radiolab: "Smarty Plants" on Pandora - Do you really need a brain to sense the world around you? So they might remember even for a much longer time than 28 days. Is there anyone whose job it is to draw a little chalk outlines around the springtails? However, if that's all they had was carbon That's Roy again. I was like, "Oh, my God! So these trees were basically covered with bags that were then filled with radioactive gas. ROBERT: She took that notion out of the garden into her laboratory. Truth is, I think on this point she's got a -- she's right. This is Ashley Harding from St. John's, Newfoundland, Canada. Kind of even like, could there be a brain, or could there be ears or, you know, just sort of like going off the deep end there. It's almost as if these plants -- it's almost as if they know where our pipes are. No, it's far more exciting than that. Or it could be like, "Okay, I'm not doing so well, so I'm gonna hide this down here in my ceiling.". They're father and son. The fact that humans do it in a particular way, it doesn't mean that everyone needs to do it in that way to be able to do it in the first place. They shade each other out. An expert. Little fan goes on, the light goes on. LARRY UBELL: That -- that would be an interesting ALVIN UBELL: Don't interrupt. Just the sound of it? You should definitely go out and check out her blog, The Artful Amoeba, especially to the posts, the forlorn ones about plants. Sorry! Maybe not with the helmet, but yeah. I don't know. I go out and I thought there's no one here on Sunday afternoon. Robert Krulwich. MONICA GAGLIANO: I remember going in at the uni on a Sunday afternoon. If you get too wrapped up in your poetic metaphor, you're very likely to be misled and to over-interpret the data. Smarty Plants--My Latest Guest Spot for Radiolab - Scientific American Blog Network COVID Health Mind & Brain Environment Technology Space & Physics Video Podcasts Opinion Store Knowledge within. ROBERT: Let me just back up for a second so that you can -- to set the scene for you. JAD: We've all seen houseplants do that, right? ROBERT: Like, would they figure it out faster this time? He says something about that's the wrong season. I was, like, floored. ROBERT: But once again I kind of wondered if -- since the plant doesn't have a brain or even neurons to connect the idea of light and wind or whatever, where would they put that information? And therefore she might, in the end, see something that no one else would see. JENNIFER FRAZER: Apparently she built some sort of apparatus. Maybe each root is -- is like a little ear for the plant. So that's where these -- the scientists from Princeton come in: Peter, Sharon and Aatish. And then someone has to count. Again, science writer Jennifer Frazer. Nothing delicious at all. It was done by radiolab, called "smarty plants". And it's that little, little bit of moisture that the plant will somehow sense. And to me, here are three more reasons that you can say, "No, really! And so I was really excited. Just the sound of it? Can Robert get Jad tojoin the march? Let him talk. The problem is is with plants. Little white threads attached to the roots. JAD: Couldn't it just be an entirely different interpretation here? ROBERT: We, as you know, built your elevator. And if you don't have one, by default you can't do much in general. If you look at these particles under the microscope, you can see the little tunnels. Douglas fir, birch and cedar. I've been looking around lately, and I know that intelligence is not unique to humans. In this case, a little blue LED light. The fungi, you know, after it's rained and snowed and the carcass has seeped down into the soil a bit, the fungi then go and they drink the salmon carcass down and then send it off to the tree. Or at the time actually, she was a very little girl who loved the outdoors. And again. They run out of energy. April 8, 2018 By thelandconnection. So they didn't. Like, as in the fish. ROBERT: But once again I kind of wondered if -- since the plant doesn't have a brain or even neurons to connect the idea of light and wind or whatever, where would they put that information? Dedicated to enhancing the lives of the citizens in the communities it serves by responding to their need to be engaged, educated, entertained & enlightened. Why waste hot water? In this case, a little blue LED light. These guys are actually doing it." So what does the tree do? So the -- this branching pot thing. Well, I have one thing just out of curiosity As we were winding up with our home inspectors, Alvin and Larry Ubell, we thought maybe we should run this metaphor idea by them. And now, if you fast-forward roughly 30 years, she then makes a discovery that I find kind of amazing. I don't know yet. She's done three experiments, and I think if I tell you about what she has done, you -- even you -- will be provoked into thinking that plants can do stuff you didn't imagine, dream they could do. The show is known for innovative sound design, smashing information int Because this peculiar plant has a -- has a surprising little skill. MONICA GAGLIANO: Yeah. But they do have root hairs. Promote. A plant that is quite far away from the actual pipe. And a little wind. ROBERT: She determined that you can pick a little computer fan and blow it on a pea plant for pretty much ever and the pea plant would be utterly indifferent to the whole thing. It spits out the O2. ], [JENNIFER FRAZER: And lastly, a friendly reminder. ROBERT: Oh, so this is, like, crucial. Or even learn? ], With help from Alexandra Leigh Young, Jackson Roach and Charu Sinha. And we were all like, "Oh, my goodness! SUZANNE SIMARD: And so in this particular summer when the event with Jigs happened ROBERT: What kind of dog is Jigs, by the way? Yours is back of your house, but let's make it in the front. ], [ALVIN UBELL: Our fact-checker is Michelle Harris. When they did this, they saw that a lot of the springtails that had the tubes inside them were still alive. LINCOLN TAIZ: I think you can be open-minded but still objective. How does it know which way to turn and grow its roots so that it can find the water? And he starts digging with his rake at the base of this tree. ROBERT: So she takes the plants, she puts them into the parachute drop, she drops them. JENNIFER FRAZER: So what do we have in our ears that we use to hear sound? 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